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Message started by Randy on Apr 10th, 2008 at 4:09am

Title: grid number orientation
Post by Randy on Apr 10th, 2008 at 4:09am
Hi, quick question.  Any plans on adding a feature to change the grid orientation?  I went back through past posts and didn't see anything on it so if I missed it I apologize.  The grid numbering starts on 1 at the top and makes its way down.  I'm probably the odd one because I prefer to weave with 1 on the bottom making it's way up.  Don't know if anyone has asked this before but it would be a nice feature (for me anyways).  Thought I'd ask.  Thanks, Randy.

Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by Owen Dare on Apr 10th, 2008 at 7:10am
I haven't had any requests for that orientation.

I'm assuming you must work directly from the grid and run the wrap thread UNDER the rod??

I'd have to have a think about the implications of doing so.
There are a great many calculations that are based on a grid reference.

Can you expand a bit on why such a feature would be helpful?


Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by Randy on Apr 10th, 2008 at 8:39am

The feature would be helpful because...

The explanation is simplier than you think,  ;).  

It's because I'm using a Renzetti and the rotation is counter-clockwise.  The thread is feed from the back and top.  I use a Wonder Weaver and have the number wheels reversed so the weave thread numbers increase coming across the top (instead of clockwise which would have the numbers increasing from the bottom).  

I "used" to use PC Stitch to design my weaves and would just write in the grid numbers from bottom to top along the left column.  Then, make my "reversed" left list from that.

:o   Randy.

Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by Owen Dare on Apr 10th, 2008 at 11:19am
If you're still working from a left list, could you not do your design and then flip it vertically before doing the left list?
I don't know if I'm visualizing how you're going about it.

Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by Randy on Apr 10th, 2008 at 12:07pm
OK, now your confusing me,  :'(.  Just visualize the rotation of the blank coming at you not away.  Therefore, if weave thread 1 is directly in front of you, it rotates to the bottom as the numbers increase across the top.  I'm just weaving the opposite way most people do with a clockwise rotation.  
Sorry for the confusion.  Randy.

Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by Owen Dare on Apr 11th, 2008 at 3:15pm
OK, so as you rotate slightly you want the numbers to appear in sequence.
I'll have a look, but I'm thinking that it will be a fairly major operation to renumber both the grid & left list from bottom to top.

Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by Randy on Apr 12th, 2008 at 3:58am
I'm certainly no mathematician or software designer so I have no idea what it would take to do something like that (that's why I wrap rods).  My thoughts would be to have the feature available before importing the image so the grid is already established.  Not design the image then change the grid because then I would think the software to change the numbering would be pretty intense.  

I just designed my first weave on your program which worked very good but then I had to print it out as large as possible and renumber the left column.  Then create my left list from there.  81 design threads, 3 colors and 190 wraps and it took me 2 days to write the left list and create a Word document.

I appreciate you giving it some thought.  I'm sure you probably want some input on the program so you know what guys like and dislike.  The program itself is very easy to use and making the design is much easier than PC Stitch.  I guess I'm the only guy doing weaves using a Renzetti and Wonder Weaver combo, LOL.  Certainly email me if you need other inout or have other questions but I think you understand now what I was referring to.  I know it's impossbile to design something that makes everybody happy.  I'm happy with the program I just have to do a few extra steps to make it work for me.  
Thanks, Randy.

Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by woodsnwaterjcd on Apr 16th, 2009 at 11:12am

I also use the Renzetti (actually Clemens rod building lathe I bought back in the stone age) and the Wonder Weaver. I wrap the same way. Thread comes from the back over the top. I rotate counter clockwise.

For my application, thread one is on top of the blank and thread XX is on the bottom in typical "left list" fashion, wrapping from left to right or "up the blank".

Setting up the Renzetti and WW opposite of the directions and following the left list from bottom to top would seem to work, haven't tried it, only visualized it by setting up my lathe with the WW on a blank.

In effect you'll be weaving backwards, from right to left or "down the blank". Reading the Left list from bottom to top. Thread layout numbers are still top to bottom on the printed left list though.


OK, now I'M confused :o

Just got back from playing with idea's, turning the graph upside down, doing the left list backwards, flipping the image, wrapping down the blank, etc. I'm ambidextrous and I'm gonna need counseling over this one. Good grief Randy, you got issues man :'(   LOL!!

No matter what I did, coming up with a printed left list with the numbers the way you like them is the issue.  

Owen, glad your the creator/moderator for this thing ;D!

I'll be up all night the rest of the week trying to figure this one out. THX![smiley=eek2.gif]

Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by woodsnwaterjcd on Apr 16th, 2009 at 11:26am
Following the printed graph turned upside down and with the WW set up backwards wrapping right to left works for me the way you like your threads laid out.

I am going to use a "left list" and call it a "right list" with the same set-up and no graph tomorrow and see what happens.

I knew I should have went fishing this evening.

Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by woodsnwaterjcd on Apr 19th, 2009 at 1:43am

I understand why you desire the option for threads listed from bottom to top.  

Rotating ccw, numbers top to bottom and wrap thread over the top from behind.

If you have 50 pattern threads and #1-15/ 40-50 going to the left. Threads #1-15 are on top and the first threads moved to the left. When you get to threads 40-50, threads 1-15 have gone past the point where the wrapping thread separates from the blank going to the wrapping device eyelet above. The angle of the wrapping thread from the blank to the wrap device eyelet causes pattern threads #1-15 to stretch out and away at an angle becoming distorted, and in some cases damaged using metallics.

The thread pattern working space is limited on small diameter blanks or large weaves on large diameter blanks. My solution was to raise the lathe to see and operate more to the side of the blank)

I must rotate the blank ccw for low number threads (1,2,3,4,5,) as I progress down the left list, then rotate the blank cw to the higher number threads (40,41,42,43 etc -50) at the end of the left list. Then with all the "left" threads in place for that step, re-rotate ccw for one rotation around the blank to proceed to next the "left list" step.

Wrapping with numbers listed bottom to top will maintain thread pattern integrity as you proceed with the left list. (ccw rotation - Renzetti users).

Reviewing reference material shows that recent time "Mentors" use a wrapping device with thread coming from in front of them and going over the blank. Facilitating the use of a normal "left list". Pattern threads are not distorted as you progress with the left list for that particular pass. Randy, guess we both have issues now, thanks!  [smiley=aeh.gif]  [smiley=dankk2.gif]


I wrote this hoping to help you better understand the conditions Randy was basing his request. (Randy, I hope this information is in-line with yours)

As a given, this medium has parameters we understood when we purchased the software and we operate within its capabilities.

Many CRB's have invested in a wrapping device that limits the wrapping set-up (above, behind, over the top). It would be a great asset to have a medium option that will accommodate customers that own such devices. (Or, buy a front wrapping device)

I sense Randy has a valid request. This would be a step beyond for your investment and a great benefit for those using the Renzetti. I would like to join Randy in asking for you to consider this option. We are at your mercy.


Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by Owen Dare on Apr 19th, 2009 at 7:23am
I actually did attempt to implement this feature.
Unfortunately it required re-writing many key areas of code.
After a couple of days work with no end in sight I gave up.

However I would suggest you consider this.
I understand why you would want to weave in your lathe.
I do it myself.  It holds everything well and the friction from the motor stops the thread rolling back.
But...  Do you actually use power?
I know you COULD when starting & finishing, but for the rst you don't.
My ALPS lathe has all the thread tensioning devices at the front.
I don't use it for weaving.  I run my thread from the BACK and use a text book for tension.  I could develop a rear mount tensioner, but the book works fine so I probably won't.
What is stopping you guys running your thread UNDER the blank from the rear and rotating the lathe CLOCKWISE by hand?
That's exactly how I do it.
It won't do any damage to a DC motor and you can stop all the mental gymnastics trying to recalculate the left list.


Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by woodsnwaterjcd on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 7:39am

My apologizes for the delayed response.

I decided to do a weave 84 pattern threads and 187 wraps from over the top, reading the left list in sequence, but, for each line number. I read it backwards from right to left.

In other words, (left list)Line 45. 1,2, 35, 45, 46, 47, 75. I would start with pattern thread 75 and work the loom to thread 1. Then proceed to line 46.

While it worked OK, it was a bit of a mind screwing by the time I got half way down the list. So, I will finish this weave and wrap another from below the rod with the same pattern as suggested.

I am looking at another option of fabricating a front load thread adapted to the Renzetti 8 thread carriage.

It is assumed your plate runs over with this forum and personal time is allocated to do this outside of a normal work day. I imagine reading all posts, taking notes, researching the dynamics and providing a response.

Given the paragraph above, I will use discretion with this post. No need for a response, I will alert you if I make a dynamic break through while I am experimenting. In the meanwhile, anyone out there have any additional input on the subject?

Many thank's for your time and effort,


Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by Raymond Adams on Apr 23rd, 2009 at 7:48am
I really don't understand what the fuss it all about. It doesn't matter if your wrapping thread is fed from the top or bottom or the rod is turned up or down. The design threads are placed the same and the left list is read the same.

If one is wrapping right to left instead of left to right now that presents it's own issues but thats all.

What am I missing here?

Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by Owen Dare on Apr 24th, 2009 at 12:44pm
The issue is that the Renzettie lathe turns counter clockwise.
This means you're wrapping over thread before you move them to the left.
That is why I suggested running thethread underneath and rotating the blank clockwise by hand

Title: Re: grid number orientation
Post by woodsnwaterjcd on Apr 25th, 2009 at 12:15pm

No fuss, experimenting with my own techniques based on what I read in your post. I found some similarities and reading the left list is not hard. I go slow and keep up with it. I wrapped reading the left list backwards from the bottom to top just to see what happened, etc.

I really needed to start another post...just so happened, I slid in on yours...Sorry. I am new to this.

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